This website exposes the flat earth deception and proves that the earth is globe shaped.
Last night (11/15/18) I watched the FE2018 Flat Earth Conference debate between Robert Sungenis and Rob Skiba.
I don’t agree with Rob Skiba’s flat earth theory explanations, but I don’t agree with all of the explanations from Robert Sungenis geocentric globe earth explanations either.
I’m not going to review their whole debate, because it was a two-hour discussion, but I’ll point out the major things that I disagree with.
If Robert Sungenis understood these things, then he would have totally prevailed in the debate.
Like Robert, I believe that the evil ones are hiding something, and that there is a grand conspiracy, to hide that the globe earth is geocentric; which proves a creator.
Rob Skiba said that the word ‘firmament‘ was key to his conversation in becoming a flat earther, as he thinks that it points to a hard-glass dome, which could only cover a flat earth.
Firmament is Strong’s Hebrew word 7554 raqiya, meaning an expanse.
But that doesn’t give flat earthers the meaning that they want, so they cite the word that it’s based on, Hebrew 7554 raqa, to hammer thin sheets of metal to spread/stretch them out. The idea being conveyed here is that in those days people would hammer metals, to flatten them out, and then polish them, to make it give a reflection, like a mirror.
Does the expanse of heaven not like a looking glass, clear and shining? Yes!
If the Hebrews meant to define firmament as raqa, they would have used that word; but they didn’t, they used raqiya, meaning an expanse.
There was much debate about the use of the Hebrew letters bet and mem; and whether the birds, stars and sun are ‘in’ or ‘inside’ the firmament.
If the firmament is a solid dome, the birds, stars and sun, can’t be in the solid dome itself. They can be inside of the dome, or below the dome, but that’s not the Hebrew word that was used.
There are Hebrew words for ‘in‘, ‘inside‘ and ‘below‘; but Genesis 1 only uses ‘in’.
So it’s not saying that the birds, sun, moon and stars, are inside or below a dome; it’s saying that the birds, sun, moon and stars, are literally in the expanse of heaven.
I think that Robert Sungenis won this point.
Rob Skiba focused on the word ‘circle,’ proclaiming that it points to a flat disc earth.
Robert Sungenis made the point that a flat disc is 3D, as it has depth; so it’s not a circle, which is 2D.
Robert could have destroyed Rob’s claim, by pointing out that the ‘circle’ of Isaiah 40:22 is not about the shape of the earth; but rather about the circle of the ecliptic, on which Elohim sits. Isaiah didn’t use the word ball, as he was not describing a ball.
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
The ‘he’ is our Creator. He is not sitting upon a circular flat earth. He is sitting in the heavens, where the circle of the ecliptic displays the narrative of redemption, the Gospel, through the 12 constellations. Satan has perverted the narrative, to hide the true meaning of the constellations.
The word for ‘tent‘ can be rendered as ‘tabernacle‘; so it’s saying that our Creator is sitting in the tabernacle of the stars which He created.
Let’s back up to get the context of the verse. Elohim is declaring the glory of His creation.
And to whom would you liken Ěl? And what likeness would you compare to Him? The workman moulds a graven image, and the goldsmith overspreads it with gold, and the silversmith casts silver chains. Isaiah 40:18-19
He’s declaring that the works of man are nothing as compared to His creativity and power. Then He points out His mazzaroth, the twelve signs in the circle of the mazzaroth, which have proclaimed His plan of redemption from the beginning.
Did you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been declared to you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth? Isaiah 40:21
Do you bind the bands of Kimah (Pleiades), or loosen the cords of Kesil (Orion)? Do you bring out the constellations (mazzaroth) in its season? Or do you lead the Bear (Arcturus) with its sons? Job 38:31-32
The CIRCLE in Isaiah 40:22 is the mazzaroth in the sky above, that has 12 constellations in a circle on the ecliptic, which declare the Gospel. It is like a curtain which covers the earth, and in which the stars dwell. It’s a tabernacle (tent) in which the Father dwells.
We see that Elohim tells them to look up to the circle of the stars of the mazzaroth.
LIFT UP YOUR EYES ON HIGH AND SEE. Who has created these? He who is bringing out their HOST by number, He calls them all by name, by the greatness of His might and the strength of His power – not one is missing. Isaiah 40:26
“He appoints the number of the stars, He gives names to all of them.” Psalm 147:4
Psalm 19:1-6 tells us that the Gospel message is declared as the sun moves through the 12 constellations, which are on the circuit (circle) in the expanse of heaven.
To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
So one can clearly see that when Elohim referred to the circle of the Earth, He is referring to the circle of the Mazzoroth which acts as a constant witness to those on earth, about His great power, and about His redemption plan.
The same Hebrew word, chuwg, is used in Job 22:14 to describe the circuit of heaven. “Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit (chuwg) of heaven.”
I don’t think that Rob Skiba or Robert Sungenis won this point, as they both got it wrong; because the circle of Isaiah 40:22 is not about the shape of the earth at all, it’s about the ecliptic circuit/circle on which the sun travels in the expanse of heaven; where God sits in His tabernacle of stars.
Rob Skiba focused on Revelation 6:13 saying that if all the stars falling the earth, means that it’s flat
He’s saying that all of the stars are above the earth, so it’s not possible for them to all fall down to the earth on a globe model.
He focused on it saying that ‘all‘ of the stars, but the KJV doesn’t have the word ‘all’. I can’t find a Bible version that includes the word ‘all’, so did Rob add it, to try to make a point?
“And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.”
Robert Sungenis could have easily dismissed Rob’s statement, by pointing out that Revelation 6:13 is not about literal stars, but it symbolically is pointing to the Roman leadership system, which was collapsing:
Revelation 6:12-13, “I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.”
Earthquakes in the prophetic scriptures represent great political upheavals.
Constantine became a great Emperor and Rome had the opportunity to repent. However, this she failed to do and the Roman Empire split into two opposing halves, the Western half and Eastern half.
The sun, moon and stars are symbolic of earthly dignitaries, great political authorities and great lights in the political or religious heavens.
We know this because in Genesis 37:8-10, Joseph had a dream, ..”And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me. So he told it to his father and his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?” It was symbolic of the power structure.
Isaiah used this same terminology when he referred to the judgment of God against the leadership of Babylon in Isaiah 13:10 “For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine.“ And indeed, the power of Babylon was destroyed by the Medo-Persian empire.
These examples which are clearly not about the literal Sun, moon and stars.
Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isaiah 34:3-5 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Ezekiel 32:6-8 I will also water with thy blood the land wherein thou swimmest, even to the mountains; and the rivers shall be full of thee. And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.
Amos 8:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:
Those are not descriptions of final judgment. They are oracles against Babylon (Isaiah 13) and against Edom (Isaiah 34) and Egypt (Ezekiel 32) and the northern kingdom of Israel (Amos). Point at issue: We are not dealing with literal events here, but apocalyptic imagery.
So in the 6th seal of Revelation, it represents the downfall of Roman leadership, as they used to rule a large empire, but now their power was diminishing.
“Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.” Revelation 6:14
The Roman Empire was vast with many leaders overseeing provinces, so the “sky receding as a scroll” represents the Roman Empire losing its power over the nations.
The mountains and islands that were moved out of their places, were all of the nations that were affected by the fall of the Roman Empire
Revelation 6:15-17, “And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
The Romans had been the kings of the earth for many years. They had gathered the riches of the world, as they conquered. Their military had no equal. The leaders had become spoiled by their conquests, as nobody was able to oppose them.
But in 375 A.D., God sent the Ostrogoths and Huns, who routed the Roman army in the battle of Adrianople.
And in 395 A.D., the Visigoths led by Alaric rampaged through Greece and Italy and captured the city of Rome in 410 A.D..
The once invincible Roman Army was now hiding from the attacks of their enemies, which came because our Lord sent them to execute His wrath.
As the Roman Empire collapsed around them, the kings and mighty men would no doubt remember all the Christian warnings of God’s coming wrath, and also remember their courage to die for their faith.
The 5th seal of Revelation represents the blood of the martyrs crying out for vengeance from our Lord.
So the 6th seal of Revelation represents Messiah exacting justice against the Roman Empire, for shedding the blood of the saints.
Sadly, neither Rob or Robert won this point, as their explanations were based on literal stars; instead of the symbolic imagery of Revelation, which was pointing to the leadership system of the declining Roman Empire.
Rob Skiba’s closing statement was a sad commentary of him as a person.
Rob made it a point to attack the Popes and Catholic Church, as Robert Sungenis is Catholic; in an attempt to reduce his credibility.
To be fair, neither of them understands that the office of the papacy, the Popes of Rome, fulfill Bible prophecy as the Son of Perdition of 2 Thessalonians 2, and the antichrist beast of Revelation; who leads the harlot Roman Church.
The antichrist Popes are the enemy of Messiah and His saints, and of mankind; so of course they’ve made false statements about the universe, about creation/evolution, etc., because they no doubt are behind hiding that the earth is geocentric.
Making statements against Robert’s faith/church was a low-point for Rob, but then he stooped even lower.
Not that I had a lot of respect for Rob Skiba, but any that I had was lost; when in his closing statement, he felt that he had made a valid point, and he shouted “I won the debate, I won the debate”. Of course, the pro flat-earth audience loved it.
Wow, that was so immature and unprofessional! And Robert Sungenis hadn’t even given his closing statement yet.
Robert handled it with grace. He addressed the wrong teachings of liberal Catholics, with which he disagrees.
I’m glad that I watched the debate, as it solidified my belief, that the earth is a globe and that it’s geocentric.
The people at the conference are right, that there’s a grand deception; but sadly, they have been misled into believing the flat earth explanation, which effectively hides the geocentric globe earth.
And it’s really telling that shortly after Robert Sungenis published his movie The Principle, which shows scientific proof that earth is at the center of the universe; that the flat earth theory was pushed on YouTube and Facebook, to hide the truth the Robert, and others, are teaching.
Dear David,
Thank you for writing and sharing your thoughts about the debate. I have read most of your website on this issue and I quote you in my book, Flat Earth/Flat Wrong. Thank you for you untiring efforts to help the flat-earthers out of their dilemma.
Regarding the arguments in my debate that you believe my efforts could have been stronger, namely, Is 40:22 and Rev 6:13, I will have to disagree with your approach to these passages, although I understand and appreciate your viewpoint.
Regarding Is 40:22, this is my one paragraph comment in my book on your theory.
“Although this author’s purpose is to discredit the flat Earth theory, this is the wrong way to go about it since it conflates references to the constellations, which are in a circle, with the Earth which is a circle. Is 40:21, which introduces the context of Is 40:22, makes a specific reference to the Earth as the focus of the passage (“Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?”). Is 40:22 then follows immediately with, “It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers.” Moreover, Isaiah’s reference in verse 22 to the “heavens” immediately after (“who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in”) is not talking about the twelve constellations of Mazzoroth, but the whole heavens that includes all the stars which, in its hemispherical or spherical shape, is like a circular tent covering. Hence Mazzoroth is not even part of the discussion in Isaiah 40:21-22.”
So, basically what I am saying here is that by introducing Mazzoroth into the interpretation you are bringing in a foreign element into the discussion that the Isaiah text does not include or appeal to in any way. I believe exegesis has to stick with the context as the primary source.
Regarding Rev 6:13, in order to claim that the falling stars of the passage are speaking about the fall of the Roman leaders, you would first have to prove that the overall text of Rev 6 is pointing to the historical situation of Rome in the first century, which is the preterist viewpoint of the whole of Revelation. That is rather hard to do considering Rev 4-6 is a highly symbolic text. I’m not saying your view is necessarily wrong, but only that your view begs the question as to how Revelation should be interpreted as a whole.
My view is that Revelation is divided into seven sections that all point to the time between the First Coming of Christ to the Second Coming, and each section tells the same story about what happens between those two times but from seven different symbolic vantage points. The sections are Chapters: 1-3; 4-6; 7-9; 10-11; 12-14; 15-19; 20-22.
So, for example, in Chapters 4-6, chapter 6 is speaking about the end of the world when Christ returns. Likewise in Chapters 12-14, chapter 14 is speaking about the end of the world when Christ returns, and thus, so are chapters 19, 22 and 9, and you notice that each of these chapters (9, 11, 14, 19, 22) although they speak of the same time (the return of Christ and the end of the world), each speaks from a different vantage point and with different symbolic language.
Rev 6 is the only one of the seven sections that speaks of the stars falling because it is concentrating on the collapse of the universe at the end of time. If we compare this language to other parts of Scripture (e.g., Mt 24:29-31, Mk 13:24-26; Lk 21:25-27; Is 13:10; Joel 2:10; 3:15-16; 34, et al) we notice that each of these contexts is speaking about the end of the world and the return of Christ. So it seems without question that Rev 6:13 is speaking about the end of the world.
I think this is further illustrated when we see that other contexts that exclude the stars and only mention that darkening of the sun and moon, it is apparent that the text is speaking only of Christ’s first coming (cf. Joel 2:31-32; Ac 2:20-21; Mt 27:45-46; Mk 15:33-34; Lk 23:44-45; Malachi 4:5).
In any case, I think the point remains that whether it is Isaiah, Joel or the synoptic gospels, the idea of stars falling to Earth is discounted as a support for the flat-earthers idea that small stars the size of meteors fall to a large flat disc, since in the globe-geocentric universe the stars can be big or small but can fall toward the Earth because the Earth is in the center of the universe, which corresponds to the idea in 2Peter 3:10-12 that the sky is rolled up.
Robert Sungenis
Thank you very much for your reply Robert! I do appreciate it, even though we don’t agree on some points.
I’m blessed to know that you read through the Flat Earth Deception website.
I appreciate your teaching about the geocentric globe earth, and that you graciously debated with Rob Skiba.
Regarding Isaiah 40:22, I think that Isaiah 40:26 is the missing element. Isaiah is told to “look up” at host of heaven on the ecliptic circle.
That makes the word ‘circle’ the correct word, because Isaiah was pointing to the circle of the ecliptic, so he was not describing a globe.
I would encourage you to look into the fulfillment of the 6th seal, to make sure that you’re not wrong about it. Here’s a study that gives the explanation. http://revelationtimelinedecoded.com/the-sixth-seal-of-revelation-6/
And to help you see how Revelation is a historical narrative of the battle between the Satan-empowered leader of the Roman beast, against Messiah and His saints; here’s a Revelation Fulfillment Summary, which gives you the big picture of the fulfillment. http://revelationtimelinedecoded.com/revelation-fulfillment-timeline-summary/
Just as we’ve been misled about the orientation of the earth, we’ve been misled about prophecy fulfillment. The enemy has caused people to believe that it’s mostly future, when the truth is that most of it has already been fulfilled during the last 1,900 years.
Keep up the great work! This flat earth theory needs to be exposed, because they are misleading many people and giving Christians a bad name.
David
Thank you for the summary of the FE2018 debate. I think that Robert Sungenis gets many things right, but missed the mark on some explanations, as you pointed out. Maybe you should share your review with him.
Thanks for your comment Rick! I am going to contact Robert Sungenis, to share my review, and hopefully it helps him defend the geocentric globe earth more effectively. 🙂